Itsthinking

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@SmokySkies
T’was a joke, much like my Sherman comment at the start.

Don’t worry, the a lot of this can be taken care of pretty well by removing the myth of the Lost Cause and not glossing over Reconstruction-era/early 20th century racism via proper interpretation, so that a statue of Lee can’t be used in a way to intimidate minorities. Yes, the Civil War is history, but many people use these monuments as basically monuments to support their racist agendas which is both unproductive and disrespectful to history. Which is why they belong in museums, where people can learn about the Civil War without the post-war cult of the Lost Cause/later racism trying to rewrite history.

Or you know, hey, the other side could just put up a statue of Nat Turner or John Brown. Whatever works.

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SmokySkies

@SmokySkies
@Tidal Charm
@SilversThreads
Don’t make us come down there again.

Sounds like a threat to me.

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Itsthinking

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@Tidal Charm
You’re welcome. I know you haven’t changed your opinions but I didn’t set out to do that, but explain mine. I’ll admit that my anti-Confederate slant is a bit strong. But hey, it leads to good discussions.

You call it “censorship,” but imagine someone who didn’t like the Confederate flag up until very recently. They sure as hell weren’t going to freely speak their mind. This whole outrage over “PC culture” and “the left” is people being upset that they now have to defend their viewpoints or deal with people who don’t like what they do.

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Frosku

Vox Exercitus

All joking aside, I think the division of the United States is inevitable. The way things are becoming more and more politically polarized over the last 20 years, it might be the only option for long-term stability.

I’m not sure if that would be north/south or a series of smaller secessions as I think that a lot of the north now lies politically with southerners, and some of the south (Virginia, for example, or New Mexico) is far more in tune with the liberal northeast.

@Itsthinking
I do want to thank you for a largely cordial discussion on what can be a very heated subject. I have strong opinions and so do you, but it’s been fun and thanks for being respectful. I’m going to go play North & South on my Atari ST now. :D

@SmokySkies
You’re missing out. I largely agree, censorship isn’t the way to deal with ideas you disagree with. I support your (or anyone’s) right to voice any terrible opinion you want. The best counter for bad ideas is good ideas, and I think this is slowly what’s happening to leftism/socjus at least in the US.

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SmokySkies

@Background Pony #2CB4
Not to mention being an ever-present staple in videogames, music (especially country), TV, even political campaigns. It’s the left’s latest attempt to divide black & white people in the south and I’m fed up of it.

About music, things like this are blocked in France.
This really annoy me, some are very nice. I don’t care if it’s CSA, nazi Germany, or even Vichy’s governement, I like the music, I want to listen to it. It’s fucking historical.

At least, it’s blocked for people who don’t know how to really use the internet.
The so called tolerant Left is becoming more and more a cancer.
You are free, sure, but as long as you don’t try to touch the bars of your golden cage.

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Itsthinking

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@SmokySkies
@Tidal Charm
@SilversThreads
Don’t make us come down there again.

Slavery was a monstrous institution. You’re free to fly your flag, but I’ll judge it for what it is. Reconstruction should have lasted for generations, I think. This flag is only flown as “Lost Cause” propaganda and was never used during the war itself by the way.

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SilversThreads

Glitter Pone

@Background Pony #2CB4

The hostility against the Confederate Flag is a fairly recent phenomenon. The Dukes of Hazzard was a tv show that spanned 7 seasons in the 1980s and explicitly had a Confederate flag on the roof of the car.

It was remade into a movie in 2005, it kept the flag.

There were even toys of it

And while we’re at it, it’s even featured in an official state flag:

And ya know, the car was named after General Robert E. Lee.

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SilversThreads

Glitter Pone

@Itsthinking

@SmokySkies
The South isn’t going to rise again.

The UK will never vote for Brexit.

Everyone, first half of 2016.

The US will never vote for Trump.

Everyone, most of 2016.

This is so true~ And made me giggle quite a bit.

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Frosku

Vox Exercitus

@Background Pony #2CB4
Not to mention being an ever-present staple in videogames, music (especially country), TV, even political campaigns. It’s the left’s latest attempt to divide black & white people in the south and I’m fed up of it.

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Background Pony #60DE

[deleted]

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Frosku

Vox Exercitus

@SmokySkies
The South isn’t going to rise again.

The UK will never vote for Brexit.

Everyone, first half of 2016.

The US will never vote for Trump.
Everyone, most of 2016.

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Frosku

Vox Exercitus

@ItsThinking
If might makes right then every brutal dictator in every part of the world is justified in his actions. Including the slaveholders.

I reject the notion that having bigger fists resolves ethical & philosophical issues.

@Zintenka
The flag is not a symbol of hate or slavery. It flew over zero slave ships and zero plantations because it wasn’t the national flag of the CSA.

‘Racist’ as discussed in the very lengthy thread below applies to just about every white man in the USA at the point in time of the civil war.

This flag stands for an army that fought outnumbered and outgunned against a militarily superior and oppressive federal government, including people in my ancestry. I’m not going to cease to honor their cause because you’ve accepted a ridiculous media narrative.

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SmokySkies

@Itsthinking
If you say so.
Pray it never happen then. You never know what people may be plotting until it’s too late, if you do, they already failed.

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SmokySkies

@Zintenka
That’s what you think, they disagree.
Why would your opinion be worth more than their? “It’s racist” is not an argument.
Beside, it’s comical to say “eh, you can be proud of your agricultural power”, like “yes, keep feeding us, you have no rights to be proud of something else, you racist bigot”.

Sure. I prefer to side with so called racists rather than people thinking like you.
Is it bad? Maybe. Is it wrong? No.

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Itsthinking

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@SmokySkies
The South isn’t going to rise again.

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Zintenka

Improve and Discover!

Why is this even a discussion?

It’s clear that the Flag is a symbol of hatred and enslavement. That we do know.

There are many OTHER things That the South can be prideful about. Like it’s agricultural power.

Willfully choosing this symbol as a representation of Southern Pride is not only stupid… But it’s treason to a country that you supposedly toot “God Bless America!”

This flag and the people behind them should NOT be celebrated. They belong in a museum and books where the world will remember their actions as horrible human beings and people who enslaved.

Then, when people call you racists… You want to call anyone who does SJWs.

If the shoe fits; wear it or change yourself.

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SmokySkies

@Itsthinking
You don’t need to be rich to win a war.
War is won by people, not by money. Some states managed to win despite inferiors numbers or technology. There are a lot of ways to make your ennemy lose, especially when you are on the defending side.
You should remember Vietnam? Or how a bunch of poor commies peasants won against the “best military of the world”.

“Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men. It is the spirit of men who follow and of the man who leads that gains the victory.” - George S. Patton

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Itsthinking

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@SmokySkies
Sure, but:

full

full

Not sure we have much to worry about.

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SmokySkies

@Itsthinking
You have a Darwinian logic. Might makes Right.
It’s not that bad, it values itself.
But if you want to be consistent, If a new CSA rise nowadays, no matter the reason, if they win, you’ll be forced to recognize they are right and their desire to be free.
Not doing so would be hypocrisy.

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Itsthinking

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@Tidal Charm
Doesn’t matter, because they won. Again, Texas v White said (successful) revolution or consent of states are the only two ways out. If the former win at it via that method, legality of armed rebellion kind of becomes moot. You have to win for it to work.

That being said, in the modern era, you nip secession/desires for self-determination in the bud by giving special privileges.

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Frosku

Vox Exercitus

@Itsthinking
OK, well as long as you’re against self-determination of populations in all cases, at least you’re consistent. I guess you side with the British in the Revolutionary War as well? I don’t think Parliament voted for that particular secession.

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Itsthinking

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Deletion reason: Nope

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Frosku

Vox Exercitus

@Tidal Charm
I guess as long as you win it doesn’t really matter but it would be preferable if it weren’t unilateral. Also, Texas v. White explicitly says that “consent of states” is required.

It says consent of states or successful rebellion, but many justices disagree with the ruling.

Would you support a Trump presidency opening fire on Vermont if its citizens voted to leave the union next year?

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Itsthinking

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@Tidal Charm
I guess as long as you win it doesn’t really matter but it would be preferable if it weren’t unilateral. Also, Texas v. White explicitly says that “consent of states” is one of the two ways to leave, the other being revolution. So both are possible, but the former is best.

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Frosku

Vox Exercitus

@Tidal Charm
Probably the only mistake that Lincoln made was suspending the writ of habeas corpus. Yes, using force was an adequate response to armed rebellion against the government.

Do you agree with the ruling in Texas v White that the only legitimate way to separate from the union is via successful armed rebellion, or would you support a modern-day Texas/California/Vermont peaceful separation?

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