@Ganondox
How would it be naive? She was literally offering Chrysalis to go back to being a queen and no one else was objecting it. She was literally offered redemption by practically the entire main cast. Twilight was not trying to reason with Cozy whatsoever nor did she offer her a chance. She only asked why once then expressed some dissapointment before being reassured by her students. That was all. No chance, no reasoning, nothing. She in no way tried to reform her.

@CronoM
I still found her enjoyable and Frenemies did much to give her some potential. Shame the finale and the way the hero’s treated her ruined it.

@Ganondox
Not really. Starlight actually offered Chrysalis redemption. Unlike Twilight with Cozy. And there could have been time for it.

@Background Pony #20A3

@Ganondox
Girls, girls, your both pretty.

Listen, I think we can all agree on one thing…………..

Ganondox is totally in denial when defending Twilight’s actions with Cozy Glow. She barely even tried to reform her, I think the audiance was supposed to assume she was the villain from Cats Don’t Dance and thus completely beyond redemption, but its kind of bullshit.

Girls, girls, your both pretty.

@CottonTales
Yea, if Celestia’s gonna release Discord who gets so many chances then it makes no sense not to give the same to others.

@Ganondox
So Starlight just happened to be strong enough to escape and thats why she got a second chance later, friendship is magic…

And no, Twilight asking Cozy why, then getting comforted by her students before telling her that she’s wrong without even saying why is in no way trying to help her or give her a second chance. Thats just a scolding. I can’t even comprehend how that would even count as one when Chrysalis got an outstretched hoof and Starlight practically forced Twilight to help her and Discord.

@Background Pony #20A3
Okay for the letting Discord go thing…I…cant really defend that stance logically it always seemed more like a OoC meta thing than a real thing that would happen.

I don’t particularly like Discord as a constant character for several reasons. But even if I did I don’t see why they let the manipulative nearly all powerful guy off the hook when they didn’t even have a history of reforming villains then.
Above that it seemed…really out of character for Celestia, like she figured they couldn’t handle threats without Discord present which they could and he made more difficult more times than not

@CottonTales
But the fact that didn’t try to reform them makes Twilight and her friends look like hypocrits given Discord and Starlight’s existance and the fact that they wrote Frenemies beforehand makes the trio’s eventual stoning feel all the more dubious. Sure, you can say that the writers simply didn’t want the trio to reform but then I can also say, with good reason, that was a case of bad writing, did not represent the Main 6 and Celestia well and make Discord look horrible.

(Also notedly for the outcomes different people made the choices…Twilight let Starlight go, the Princesses did not let Cozy go the first time nor the trio the second its possible if it was left to Twilight she would’ve gone the friendship route and if left to the princesses for Starlight she’d have been banished)

Celestia is the same pony who let Discord go even after his betrayal. The fact that his example didn’t convince her to try and reform a filly seems dubious at best.

I’m not saying that I can suddenly change the narrative or whatever, but I can point out that the trio was handled poorly and in a way that made the hero’s look bad.

@Ganondox

Anyway, I said it once and I’ll say it again, the situation that Starlight Glimmer was in at the end of her first encounter doesn’t matter as it was her second encounter that led to her redemption. I must say though that you have a much better understanding of how writing works than Background Pony does.

But the first encounter matters, because unlike Cozy, she was allowed to escape from it leading to her second chance. With her context it makes the fact that Twilight didn’t try to help Cozy just feel wrong.

(Also notedly for the outcomes different people made the choices…Twilight let Starlight go, the Princesses did not let Cozy go the first time nor the trio the second its possible if it was left to Twilight she would’ve gone the friendship route and if left to the princesses for Starlight she’d have been banished)

Anyway, I said it once and I’ll say it again, the situation that Starlight Glimmer was in at the end of her first encounter doesn’t matter as it was her second encounter that led to her redemption. I must say though that you have a much better understanding of how writing works than Background Pony does.

@Ganondox
To not go into severe detail
Starlight wasn’t seeking redemption but revenge after her first appearance even being given a friendship speech after misusing friendship and a chance. She was permitted to escape and cause even more trouble not even searched for afterwards

Now the same is ACTUALLY true for Chrysalis and earlier on I believe the girls would’ve done the same for Cozy too.
I think she was undoubtedly treated differently but for good cause that cause being the girls had seen things get worse if you let the baddie go and there is no guarantee you could stop them every time.

BUT I think the outcome would’ve been the same ‘Lacking Friendship’ was not Cozys issue. They could’ve solved it a million different ways as she’s just a manipulative filly but they couldn’t solve it the same way they solved Starlight

Starlight Glimmer was not shown her backstory, she showed her backstory to Twilight. She also did not enslave anyone, she led a cult. You can keep repeating your version of the events and how this means that Starlight Glimmer was given chances that Cozy Glow wasn’t, but I remain completely unconvinced, so I suggest you just drop it as you are wasting your time. One last thing though, Twilight did not take Starlight Glimmer to an alternative dimension, but to the future using her own spell. The circumstances were obviously different between the two, and the reason it was important for Starlight is because she wasn’t unaware of the consequences of her actions. Cozy Glow meanwhile was perfectly aware of what she was doing.

Wanting to remove ponies cutie marks is an extremely idiosyncratic goal, wanting power is not. That’s why it makes more sense to explain the former and not the later. Regardless, I’m of the opinion that relying on introducing backstories to redeem characters is poor writing.

I already said Starlight Glimmer was in the wrong, going over all the details of her wrongness doesn’t add anything. You can posit all the hypotheticals you want, but what really matters is what Starlight Glimmer though would happen, not actually did. As it was, she thought she had to lie to achieve her goals, so she did.

Your notion of redemption being safe has zero bearing on who changes. You can’t force someone to change. They could convince Starlight Glimmer and not Cozy Glow and that’s what it comes down to, period. However, I’d say that as a manipulator Cozy Glow is potentially much more dangerous than Starlight Glimmer is. Discord is more powerful, so again, why are y’all obsessed about Starlight Glimmer and not Discord?

YOU’RE looking for reasons to be sympathetic, I’m not. I was pretty explicit that it doesn’t really matter for who ends up changing. As it is though, Cozy Glow “enslaved” an entire school insomuch as Starlight Glimmer “enslaved” a village, but Starlight Glimmer did with the intention of bettering them, while Cozy Glow just did it to serve herself. To say Starlight Glimmer got revenge on Twilight for the latter defending herself is extremely disingenuous, no, it’s because Twilight completely destroyed her livelihood and turned all of her “friends” against her. Last thing, there is no evidence that Cozy Glow is an orphan. Just because her parents aren’t seen doesn’t mean they are dead. The fact she appears to be a child does not make her good. You seem to be confirming my suspicions that that is the only reason people woobify her. Finally, Twilight did try to act fairly, you’re just continuing to ignore everything Twilight did do and are placing all the blame on her.

Cozy Glow did get that. She was taught friendship at the school of friendship, and instead of using it for good as was taught she used it for evil. Twilight tried to reason with her, and she responded to escape so she could plot further. Everything else is off camera. Your interpretation of the events at the school is not anything that was depicted, it’s just you making excuses so that you can dismiss it. Cozy Glow clearly understand what she learned as she was able to apply it to manipulating other ponies, that’s than just rote knowledge. As it is, you bringing up that Cozy Glow was Twillght’s personal assistant is evidence that Twilight had far more of a relationship with her than with most of the other students at the school. You’re really not helping your argument.

@Ganondox

Of course she only stopped when Twilight showed her the ruined world. She had no idea that she was ruining the world prior, and once she saw it she came to conclusion that it was wrong on her own. I don’t know why you’re going on about excuses for what people did, as I think I made it pretty clear that the background doesn’t matter, it’s what they chose to do going out that does. Twilight didn’t go through greater lengths to convenience Starlight Glimmer, the difference is Starlight Glimmer was receptive while Cozy Glow continued to try to fight back to the very end. I’m sorry, but you’re never going to convince me that your version of the story is accurate as I am seeing things that you apparently are not, so you might as well drop it now.

But seeing the ruined world didn’t completely stop her. She still had to show her backstory before she gave herself up. And if you’re going by what people choose to do, Starlight chose to enslave a group of ponies and after she failed and managed to escape she chose to take revenge on Twilight. The fact that she got away the first time and fought Twilight to a standstill the second is why she managed to get herself a better ending. And yes, Twilight did go to greater lengths to convince Starlight. Throughout their fight she kept trying to get through to her, then took her to an alternate reality then sat through her backstory and that was after she had failed to get through to her during their first encounter. Meanwhile the only thing Cozy got was a “why?” and a “sorry” without any sort of attempt at convincing, past delving or chance giving.

Wanting power is not something that needs to be explained. Might as well ask why someone wants good tasting food. Not everything needs some BS Freudian excuse, which you weren’t satisfied with anyway. Fact is Twilight DID inquire into Cozy Glows motivations, and you remain unsatisfied because Cozy Glow didn’t respond in the same manner as Starlight Glimmer, so you decide to blame Twilight instead.

Wanting power should be explained the same way as forcibly removing cutie marks and weakening the pony. Thing is that some things require further why’s. Starlight was simply willing and able to give a longer answer while Cozy in her immaturity didn’t. That doesn’t mean that she’s any less deserving of a second chance.

Starlight Glimmer believed that she told them the truth then they wouldn’t trust her — which is exactly what happened when the truth was uncovered. Fact of that matter is that Starlight Glimmer was in the wrong, but being in the wrong does not mean she is unable to change. Change, however, has to come from somewhere, and Starlight Glimmer was in a very different circumstance than Cozy Glow was so she was more receptive to change. I’ve noticed throughout your argument that you’re mistaking reasons to be sympathetic with a character with the character’s personality. It is the latter, not the former, that determines if the character can change. You need to stop thinking of what you think is fair, and thinking of how the character’s would think about what is presented to them. If things were fair, everyone would be good without needing any convincing and there would be no conflict.

The only reason they stopped trusting her is because she lied about it and tried to force it on others. It also didn’t help that she literally attacked two of them. And Starlight being in different circumstances didn’t mean that Cozy couldn’t change. We don’t know that because no attempt at changing her was made. If anything, Cozy’s circumstances are better, because she’s just a filly without the powerful magic Starlight possesses, thus making the process of reforming her safer. And if were looking at reasons to be sympathetic, Starlight enslaved a village all because one friend left her and later tried to get revenge on Twilight because she dared protect herself when she stole her and her friends’ cutie marks. Cozy meanwhile, is a child who never got a second chance or so much as a trial, we never saw or heard anything about her family leading to the most likely conclusion that she’s an orphan and got imprisoned in an unnecessarily cruel place. And yes, things aren’t always fair but that doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t try acting fairly, especially the Princess of Friendship who personally saw beforehand on multiple occasions how people can change and if they deserved a chance then it’s only fair that Cozy does as well.

What Scorpan’s brother did is irrelevant as he is not part of the main cast, he’s just a background character from long ago. Much more was done for Cozy Glow, you’re just deciding none of it counts. Oh, this reminds, you mentioned a reformation program, Cozy Glow was in the School Friendship which fills the same role. Cozy Glow is also different in that to Twilight, she was not a stranger. Twilight had already taught her and Cozy Glow betrayed her anyway. Just one of many more ways that it was a very different situation than with Starlight Glimmer.

Yes, Scorpan’s attempt at reasoning was a very minor thing, as I’ve eluded to earlier, but it was still more than Cozy who again, didn’t even get that. As for the school, all she did there was learn words to get good grades and assist Twilight and Starlight in various tasks. Simply learning words for grades doesn’t make one learn meanings. If I were to have to memorize a quote or a poem it wouldn’t mean that I would learn their meaning to, plus the things they taught at school seemed to mostly consist of basic social interactions, history and whatever jobs the Main 6 had. Hardly room for reforming someone in the same way as taking her in as a personal student or giving her to a pony for the specific purpose of reforming her. And Twilight didn’t really know Cozy personally all that much considering that Cozy was faking the entire time and all she really did was be a personal assistant and do some chores. Yes, her situation was different, but not so different to not offer her the same thing the other reformed villains got.

Of course she only stopped when Twilight showed her the ruined world. She had no idea that she was ruining the world prior, and once she saw it she came to conclusion that it was wrong on her own. I don’t know why you’re going on about excuses for what people did, as I think I made it pretty clear that the background doesn’t matter, it’s what they chose to do going out that does. Twilight didn’t go through greater lengths to convenience Starlight Glimmer, the difference is Starlight Glimmer was receptive while Cozy Glow continued to try to fight back to the very end. I’m sorry, but you’re never going to convince me that your version of the story is accurate as I am seeing things that you apparently are not, so you might as well drop it now.

Wanting power is not something that needs to be explained. Might as well ask why someone wants good tasting food. Not everything needs some BS Freudian excuse, which you weren’t satisfied with anyway. Fact is Twilight DID inquire into Cozy Glows motivations, and you remain unsatisfied because Cozy Glow didn’t respond in the same manner as Starlight Glimmer, so you decide to blame Twilight instead.

Starlight Glimmer believed that she told them the truth then they wouldn’t trust her — which is exactly what happened when the truth was uncovered. Fact of that matter is that Starlight Glimmer was in the wrong, but being in the wrong does not mean she is unable to change. Change, however, has to come from somewhere, and Starlight Glimmer was in a very different circumstance than Cozy Glow was so she was more receptive to change. I’ve noticed throughout your argument that you’re mistaking reasons to be sympathetic with a character with the character’s personality. It is the latter, not the former, that determines if the character can change. You need to stop thinking of what you think is fair, and thinking of how the character’s would think about what is presented to them. If things were fair, everyone would be good without needing any convincing and there would be no conflict.

What Scorpan’s brother did is irrelevant as he is not part of the main cast, he’s just a background character from long ago. Much more was done for Cozy Glow, you’re just deciding none of it counts. Oh, this reminds, you mentioned a reformation program, Cozy Glow was in the School Friendship which fills the same role. Cozy Glow is also different in that to Twilight, she was not a stranger. Twilight had already taught her and Cozy Glow betrayed her anyway. Just one of many more ways that it was a very different situation than with Starlight Glimmer.

And I’m saying you’re wrong. It wasn’t just because Twilight reached out to her, it’s because of the circumstances that led her to do what she did. She had no desire to ruin Equestria, she just wanted revenge against Twilight for ruining her gig. She was coming to the conclusion that maybe her approach to dealing with her grievances wasn’t the best on her own, Twilight just helped through the process. Even in the first instance she wasn’t on the same grounds as Cozy Glow, as Cozy Glow wanted power for its own sake, whereas for Starlight Glimmer it was instrumental to realizing her vision for a better society.

Starlight only stopped when Twilight showed her the ruined world. Before that she was coming to no conclution that it was a bad idea and even when she saw that the future would end badly for her she still needed convincing and I’m sorry, but losing one friend as a kid was no excuse for what she did just as powerlust was no excuse for what Cozy did. As such, they both deserved second chances, but Twilight simply went through much greater lengths to try and get through to Starlight. If Starlight lost, or was actually captured after her first defeat, would she ever become repentent on her own? Would she get the same second chance she got in canon? The way her redemption was set up makes it seem that the only reason she got it was because she forced Twilight to try her best to get through to her, something Cozy was not powerful enough to accomplish.

Yes, Twilight was trying to reason with Cozy Glow. That’s exactly what asking why and apologizing was. I’m sorry you don’t understand the pragmatics of what Twilight was saying, if you didn’t pick up on it I don’t know what else there is to say.

Did Twilight ask why Cozy wanted power? Did she offer her a hoof like how Starlight tried with Chrysalis? Did she offer her a chance to surrender so that they could try to reform her? Did she try to have more of a conversation then a question and an apology? Did she put her in a reformation program? In what way is apologizing for not being able to teach her better a second chance or a way of reasonning considering that she never tried anything else? I don’t know what you picked up on but it certainly wasn’t a second chance or any sort of attempt at reasoning. Cozy was almost immedietly given up on.

Starlight Glimmer being a liar and hypocrite does not contradict her idealism as her deception was necessary for running her village. She could not have provided others that life if she subjected herself to it as she needed her magic to perform the spell. For her it was probably a necessary evil.

So why not just tell them then? Surely if they were so loyal they would have accepted her explanation. She said that she believed her ideology would benefit Equestria, but the way she bahaved leads me to believe that she was moreso in it for herself. And even without all that, it was still no excuse for what she did. She was acting more like a dictator then a revolutionary. She herself admitted later that she enslaved the villaige. Cozy at least has to slight benefit of being a child whom wanted power for reasons unknown. Starlight meanwhile, was a mature adult with a loving father.

If the focus was on Discord instead of Starlight Glimmer, the argument would be much better as they put significantly more effort into reforming him than they did Starlight and he had no redeeming qualities. If you were also to move the focus to Tirek instead of Cozy Glow I’d actually agree with the argument as unlike he was never given a chance to change, and actually showed significant character growth by the end of the series.

Funny thing is, that I also felt bad for Tirek even after the s5 finale where we saw the conditions he was kept in. No one deserves that. But at least Tirek’s brother tried to talk him out of it, which is not much in comparison and certainly no excuse not to try reforming him later on, but Cozy still got even less then that.