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Also..
Me:“I already pointed out the flaws in that puush.”
“Well there are none”
C’mon…that wasn’t subject for misinterpretation, that was just plain egotism.
My arguments certainly have some flaws, but you couldn’t admit to ONE at the time?
@Beau Skunky
Now I apologize if I seemed rude earlier. The only reason I was like that was because you seemed quite intent on not giving me any solid counter-arguments or straightforward answers. There were many of my arguments that you simply skipped over.
I would be glad to agree to disagree, but you didn’t even give the courtesy of addressing many of my arguments.
My opinion is not fact, and it never will be. I am trying to simply give my argument, but you so often used question dodges like ‘it feels like its not’ or even ‘I think I’m right’ as your statements.
“ I just feel that mine is very accurate and more infallible than yours is.”?
“ not to big myself up over it but I think it’s pretty correct”?
Next time guys, if you want to present me as the arrogant one, don’t tute your own horns so much, its kind of silly. Especially when you can’t answer two all-important questions…
Why did Discord give the Mane 6 the means to defeat Tirek if he had all intention on capturing Tirek himself?
Why did Celestia ask Twilight to keep the information to herself so the other 6 could get easily captured?
And don’t say you don’t get it, or say you don’t understand Celestia’s reasoning for sending Discord to do this, cause she did the exact same thing in Crystal Empire. And she explained her entire reasoning for crystal empire in FF #3.
Because that’s not what Celestia wanted. Celestia wants what she always wants, to make Twilight a hero. This is canon in both the show, and actually said as fact in the DHX approved IDW comic. FF #3.
Luna could of almost as easily tracked down Tirek before the withered Tirek gathered enough soul energy. Instead she sent Discord. Discord named dropped his ‘friend’ Fluttershy to a ruthless demon, and even dressed himself up as an angel when Tirek accused him of going soft.
This is called leading someone on. You over-exaggerate chinks in your armor so the villain thinks he can use them to turn you over. You then pretend to be won over so you can manipulate events more closely.
Celestia risked lives by telling Twilight to not recieve help from anyone in Crystal Empire. This is a fact. Whether you think her judgement was both justified and/or within reason is the opinion part.
Discord helped Tirek absorb almost every pony in Equestria of their energy. If this was an actual betrayal, he would of lost the trust of Celestia completely. Instead, 1) When stating that Discord betrayed them to Twilight and the other princesses, she didn’t act surprised or dissapointed in her own judgement in the least. 2) Discord winked at him and Celestia seems more pleased with him then ever. There are not many ways to interprete that that aren’t unrealistically optimistic.
Celestia is not a tyrant and she is not a troll, but does she have moral blind spots when it comes to making Twilight a sole hero and all-important princess? Yes.
“who’s to say that Twilight couldn’t have gotten her key another way?”
There is not much to learn about magic in a morality sense that she has acknowledged in S4. That was one issue in Bats!, she never directly apologized for her own mistake…if she did, any token of gratitude from Fluttershy would of counted as the key. Discord reasoned that one sure-fire lesson would be ‘Twilight giving up her magic’. And Celestia arranged for Twilight to be strong enough to resist so Tirek would have to use hostages, and Celestia and Discord arranged for Tirek to HAVE the hostages, even himself.
“Thing is he wasn’t ever interested in being “chaotic neutral” until he started becoming friends with Fluttershy.”
Really? Cause he sure seemed to enjoy it during the halfway point of Keep Calm and Flutter On. By acting out again, he was testing how patient Fluttershy really was. When Fluttershy proved her willingness, that was simply enough to make him realize being goody-good with Fluttershy wasn’t so bad.
“Before that he just did whatever he wanted. But he oddly did seem like he cared for her, as he never had an actual “friend” before, which helped his heel-face-turn.”
I will admit it is true that in S3 most of us thought he had honeslty done a heel-kick-turn, but after..
…we can tell he’s playing them for fools. Don’t get me wrong, he has standards, he doesn’t want to directly hurt Fluttershy or even Pinkie Pie, but he’ll lie and troll them all.
Keep in mind…even AFTER he became friends with Fluttershy, he refused to tell them the seeds trapping the princesses were his, and he could of stopped them at any time. It was his magic afterall. Why didn’t he tell them? Cause by getting rid of the elements, he was looking after numuro uno…himself.
“ and while he is a sneaky-one, it’s kinda hard for me to buy his friendship with Fluttershy, and the whole ordeal with Tirek as just him playing pretend. “
I think he does feel that he owes her a little in the simple fact that she treats him so nice, but like I said, it doesn’t equate to fully two-sided friendship. In fact by capturing her before they could resist, and Celestia telling Twilight not to tell the others anything, he was pretty much assuring that Fluttershy would come out of this alive.
“ Not everything always seems to go as Discord plans, or is him just “acting,” otherwise he never would’ve been sealed in stone TWICE.”
Discord is far older then the Sisters. If anybody knows what the Rainbow of Light is capable of or how to unlock it, its likely him. He DID underestimate those elements of harmony.
Discord was angry and pissed when he first got out. In tradition with Q, he started out as more of a villain then a neutral troll. He was so pissed with Celestia he even tried taking the moral highground shouting “At least I don’t turn ponies into STONE!!”
He wanted hard and fast payback, he was so interested in making Equestria hell that he lowered his morality standards to give Rainbow Dash a nightmare that was way more ‘twisted evil’ then ‘twisted chaos’. He underestimated 6 young ponies instead of 2 godly alicorns. He knew by then tryanny wasn’t a good application of his chaotic talents.
“Twilight was uncomfortable with Pinkie placing a lot of attention on her and trying to sell her books solely because of her position in the world, she didn’t want it to go down that way and felt embarrassed because of it, and she didn’t want people buying those books JUST because she’s a Princess.”
Just like she didn’t want all the attention just because she was a princess, and hid her face with her wings in the first few minutes. While it is true she wanted people to buy them for the right reasons, the issue was the position, not the books. She OUTRIGHT STATED the books weren’t valuable to her anymore at the beggining, her book sale being treated as an idol’s belongings garage sale was what she HATED.
THAT is why I said you dodged the question. You ignored the uncomfortability Twilight was feeling IN GENERAL and focused ONLY on the books. So yeah, it kind of is your problem if you remember the episode that badly.
Well this is why I said earlier on that we should just agree to disagree, but oh well, what’s done is done now, he feels I’m dodging him constantly whereas I feel like I did a good job addressing his complaints, but he isn’t satisfied with my reponses.
On top of that, he accuses me of this dodging whilst continuously dodging the dozens of points I’ve thrown out at him throughout this convo.
I agree anyway, and until Meghan comes out and says “yeah, his betrayal was totally planned” then I won’t believe it, it is an interesting theory however, so believe what you want.
I think the ride is over anyway.
I hate to sound rude, but I’m starting to feel it’s pointless to debate with him. If he wishes to cling to said headcanon, that’s his business, but he’s going overboard acting like it’s fact. (Also, honestly, I doubt that stuff is what the writer’s intended with the whole Discord, Fluttershy, & Tirek thing.)
Can I get off CronoM’s wild ride?
“Grasping at straws” is a fitting term for what he is doing with this whole false betrayal argument, he has one point that he’s holding onto, even when I throw multiple counters in there for him to analyse.
I’ll admit, I should have phrased it differently, we all have our own theories on this, I just feel that mine is very accurate and more infallible than yours is.
Also, I addressed your argument with the Trade Ya episode, scroll down and look, you just refuse to acknowledge it, not my problem.
He didn’t plan anything of the sort, he simply questioned the importance of the locked chest, and was trying to help the ponies unlock it while he was still allied with them and not in the state of being swayed by Tirek, his betrayal has nothing to do with that chest curiosity and assistance.
Just read the puush again… why would this entire conspiracy be necessary if he could have just detained Tirek as soon as he met him? who’s to say that Twilight couldn’t have gotten her key another way? nobody.
Also, if he was in on this, why was he surprised when the Princesses transferred their magic to Twi? he said, with a confused look “that can’t be right”.
He wasn’t in on it, there is no reason for him to allow Tirek to get that powerful unless Discord has some kind of 100% accurate crystal ball that we don’t know about.
I still don’t understand your point, or logic. It makes no sense to me personally.
Thing is he wasn’t ever interested in being “chaotic neutral” until he started becoming friends with Fluttershy. Before that he just did whatever he wanted. But he oddly did seem like he cared for her, as he never had an actual “friend” before, which helped his heel-face-turn. Being betrayed by Tirek though helped cement said “heel-face-turn,” and while he is a sneaky-one, it’s kinda hard for me to buy his friendship with Fluttershy, and the whole ordeal with Tirek as just him playing pretend. Not everything always seems to go as Discord plans, or is him just “acting,” otherwise he never would’ve been sealed in stone TWICE. (Unless you somehow believe that was “staged” to.)
…And really? You’re going to assume all of that over a brief name-mispronunciation?
“ not to big myself up over it but I think it’s pretty correct”
Wow, someone’s full of himself. Especially after still not providing a non-copout counterargument.
@Lokizade
“basic logic”
Since you have provided none, my argument hasn’t fallen apart.
Why would he plan on having Tirek defeated by the Mane 6 before, if he was just about to do it himself? Because he was leading Tirek on, he’s infinitely smarter then Tirek.
I only needed to list one point…the point that proves he had planned for the Mane 6 to defeat Tirek later in 11:40 and 12:26 of Twilight’s Kingdom.
No, unlikely. Its more likely after getting defeated by the Mane 6, then released, he grew more interested in them and decided to stay ‘Chaotic Neutral’ instead. No more tyranny, more ‘toying with the heroes’, but he made it clear to them he wasn’t personally befriending the infinitely younger heroes when he said ‘Flutsershy…whatever’.
Its far easier to be forgiven when you play pretend friend with one of them afterall.
If you have any other reason why he called Fluttershy ‘Flutsershy…whatever’, I’m all ears.
And like every conspiracy theory, it falls apart as soon as you apply basic logic.
Well there are none, not to big myself up over it but I think it’s pretty correct, your notion about the planned betrayal is a hefty headcanon, an interesting one granted, but unless it’s flat out confirmed to be that way by the writers, it’s invalid as far as I’m concerned, there’s just too many flaws and valid counter arguments going against it.
I already pointed out the flaws in that puush.
@CronoM
This would be so much easier if CronoM just read my puush lol
While we’re at it, let’s just assume everything Discord did sense his introduction was staged then if that’s what you believe.
Also, way to ignore my other points. You’re one to be accusing others of “answer-dodging.”
No, I didn’t, you just weren’t personally satisfied with what I had to say back to you.
Twilight was uncomfortable with Pinkie placing a lot of attention on her and trying to sell her books solely because of her position in the world, she didn’t want it to go down that way and felt embarrassed because of it, and she didn’t want people buying those books JUST because she’s a Princess.
However, from Pinkie placing the emphasis on the fact that the books she’d collected helped her get to where she is, she thought about it herself and realized the value in that notion, which relates again to what I said earlier about collectors, even if you won’t use these things, doesn’t mean you won’t realize that you have an emotional attachment to them, even if that attachment is realized and addressed a bit later.
I honestly felt that I addressed your feelings on that topic and just gave my own back to you, problem is that my answers don’t satisfy you, that’s your problem, not mine, if you’re still not satisfied then yeah, I guess we’re done here.
“Because, he’s Discord, the spirit of chaos.”
That’s a copout answer. I don’t even HAVE to address something as inane as that.
“Also, Discord seemed literally upset/broken by Tirek betraying him, so it doesn’t look all planned-out/faked to me.”
Other people think otherwise. Discord is infinitely smarter then Tirek or Twilight, and he is a superb actor.
It makes no sense and doesn’t actually help its own goal.
You dodged the question again. Even when I DIRECTLY gave the question to you so you could address it.
You completely ignored “Twilight’s issue of getting uncomfortable attention throughout the episode”…her issue with giving away the books only came at the last minute of Twilight’s section of the episode.
I promised to address your other points so long as you didn’t do that, and I WAS going to keep my promise. You couldn’t.
Your bias is too overwhelming. I directly gave you an episode aspect, Twilight’s uncomfortably with attention, you refused to address. This conversation is over.
Because, he’s Discord, the spirit of chaos. There’s never been ryme, or reason for the things he does. If you look at his earlier episodes he did the same thing giving them vague clues to things, even when he was “bad.”
Also, granted he gave them that hint about the journal, and the keys, BEFORE Tirek convinced Discord to join him, you forgot to mention. Also, Discord seemed literally upset/broken by Tirek betraying him, so it doesn’t look all planned-out/faked to me. He seemed genuinely sorry. (Especially to Fluttershy) And if it was all faked, then the “key” he gave Twilight wouldn’t of worked, and been useless.
The better question is, let’s say these crazy conspiracy theories are correct, wouldn’t it of been better to just have Discord capture Tirek, and such, in the first place rather then have him lay waste to the land, and drained ponies of their magic? Or you going to use that “It was all planned to help Twilight” excuse?
All that destruction he caused, all those ponies who suffered having their magic stolen, was ok, all pred-determined by princess sun-horse, just to help Twilight become more of a princess? I don’t get it. (Especially, with all the risks involved.)
Then he conveniently dodges the points I make in my puush in regards to that theory, whilst accusing me of dodging him, which if I have done, I’ve done so inadvertently and I apologize for, but I think I’ve expressed my feelings well at this point.
“Where in the blue hell did you get the idea that Discord had “the Mane 6 defeating Tirek” in mind at any point prior to Twilight’s key revealing itself? Discord had no more clue about what was in that box than anyone else.”
Wow…you are really that determined to not figure out a thing aren’t you? (mouth agape)
I’ll actually give you an exact time…11:40 and 12:26 in Twilight’s Kingdom Part 1.
Seriously. Stop asking me stuff a pre-teen could figure out. Its getting weird.